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This website is the only place which has the script for the episode.
I know some platforms and apps have automatic transcriptions but I cannot endorse AI and will not take responsibility for their accuracy.
Episode Script:
Welcome to the second time podcast. I’m Vanessa. Settle in for a doozy of a week.
I started the week with an interview. This job was with an organisation that lets people with a disability (and other marginalised groups) apply for internal only roles. While this is positive on the surface, it also left me with the feeling that I was a filler person being interviewed for a preferred internal candidate. This is always a risk in this that of situation, where you are just being used to fulfil a merit based process. It was weird leading up to it – the job title and some of the incredibly useless HR language on the position description changed between applying and being sent a new copy of the position description ahead of the interview. I spent some time looking over it on the weekend and honestly didn’t know what they would be asking me. It seemed like a highly relevant job, and then the job title changed to a very lofty one, but the pay grade was decidedly not lofty. I basically gave up on the idea of preparing for an interview and decided to wing it.
Winging it worked well. They seemed nice, they related strongly to the examples I gave in the interview, they responded better than I thought they would, and were even saying things like “Oh you’ll see a lot of that here” as if they’d already decided I would be working with them. It seemed to be an urgent need for the job to be filled, and yet they up front said they wouldn’t be getting back to me until next week. Even urgent jobs aren’t that urgent these days.
I remember when I was 17ish I would do temp office work. I’d get a phone call at 8am asking me to start a job at 10am if I could get there by then. I guess that ingrained what urgent really meant to me, and anything less than that is weird to call urgent in my book.
Despite them saying I wouldn’t know until next week, I received a quiet little rejection email on Thursday afternoon. I was already suspicious it was heading that way as they hadn’t asked for the details of my references. Oh well, they seemed nice but it was only a very short term contract, so I wouldn’t have been able to stop job hunting while I worked there.
After the interview I took some time away from my desk and watched the first Qantas plane land at Western Sydney International Airport. I watch a lot of aviation live streams and similar videos – it’s an interest of mine that I don’t share much about online. Burst out laughing when the kangaroos framed themselves perfectly on screen with the red Qantas tail centred. You know, often we have to work hard to convince visitors or non Australian friends that kangaroos truly aren’t everywhere. And then they show up in something like this as if it was staged. The kangaroos made me laugh for a while.
As I was watching the live stream, I received a text from my most recent boss saying that they had completed a reference check form on me. I thought that was odd. I’d had two interviews that could technically be reference checking me, only… I don’t put my reference details on my resume. So who on earth was reaching out to my references? The only place I could remember giving out reference details was when I was applying for temporary worker registration pools. Lots of those ask for your references up front and are compulsory fields, you can’t complete the application without them.
It turned out to be one of those temp pools!
I am very frustrated and feeling quite used about this though. I know reference checks can be used as a recruitment activity to speed things along. I understand the bureaucratic choice. It’s akin to 100 points of ID for something, you can make up the bureaucratic requirement in multiple different ways. What I do not understand is the human choice to not so much as have a two minute phone call with me to check if a) the role is one I want to apply for and b) to ensure I was still available for a role.
After getting the text message I went and checked my email, and it was then that I learned I had been cc’d into the whole email chain of asking for a reference about me. In the email I learned the pay grade of the role, but there was nothing about the duration of the contract. Granted, I know a fair bit about the goings on in that area right now so I could make an educated guess, but that’s not really the point. Why couldn’t they just spend two minutes on an email or phone call to me to check if I was ok with it all first?
I was frustrated and on edge after this. I had no idea if I was supposed to be waiting on a phone call or what was happening next. It felt like they had decided to hire me and not told me. Which is a fucking bizarre feeling. Really discombobulating.
I was talking to my partner about the day and all the weirdness, from the unclear and changing position description in the interview I had, through to the government not telling me they’re kinda trying to hire me and his opinion was “they’re treating you like cattle”. That felt accurate. Shoved here, shoved there, don’t bother asking me how I feel. Don’t bother with informed consent or accuracy or treating me like I’m a person.
Of course, this was also the day it was announced that the animal loving actor Sam Neill had passed away, so that was another emotional swing. When it comes to types of exertion, emotional exertion is one that drains me the fastest and the ups and downs were like whiplash.
Just when I thought the day (and I remind you this was still only Monday) was over, in came more bizarre. I saw an email. It was from the organisation that had interviewed me that morning. The email header said “Vanessa, you have a personal invitation for a new role”. That was odd wording. Was that some kind of job offer, a week early? I opened it cautiously and no, it wasn’t some job offer from some odd software.
It was an invitation to apply for an entry level role, because I have a disability.
I cannot tell you how fucking infuriating it is that disability programs default to “no skills, no experience, entry level”. Disabled people need opportunities at all levels. Defaulting us to only the lowest pay grade is downright offensive.
I sent the following reply:
Good evening,
I received an ‘invitation’ to apply for this role via email today. I have extensive work experience and am looking for work in a pay grade of minimum 5, but ideally 6 or 7. I’m not sure why there is an assumption that disabled people only deserve pay grade 1. Disabled does not mean unskilled or inexperienced. I would be pleased to hear from you if you have any suitable roles in bands 5 through to 7.
There is no independence in job hunting. It feels like there is no informed consent. It feels like that time I was on a channel ferry between Dover and Calais and it was shaking so violently I had trouble walking straight. You get tossed down, sideways, upways, and every which way.
The reply I got regarding the entry level disability employment program was long winded and said nothing of substance. The email started with an apology that QUOTE “the invitation came across in a way that suggested assumptions about your skills, experience, or career aspirations” – ok that’s an “I’m sorry that YOU felt this way”, which isn’t a real apology. The email continued with multiple paragraphs about why and how I received the email. I already knew how and why I had received the email, and I had not asked for an answer to either of those questions. They then told me I would likely keep receiving these emails. And then it said QUOTE “If this role is not aligned with your experience or career goals, please feel free to disregard the invitation”. That says to me that I have to keep receiving emails inviting me to apply for entry level roles because I’m on the disability email list. Oh, and they told me to share it with my network too. It went on with a bunch of generic HR statements about how to apply for work with them.
Not one part of the email explained why they associate disabled people with low skilled people who should be paid only from the lowest pay grade they have on offer. I guess they weren’t ready to admit they’ve got some ableism issues.
To anyone out there and reading or listening to this – know that you deserve employment at the appropriate level for your skills, education, and experience. I get absolutely infuriated at these programs that assume entry level only work. I know I’m not the only person who is impacted by this, it’s a problem that has also been acknowledged in a Women With a Disability Australia report (I’ll put the link in the show notes). I know I said this a few minutes ago but it’s incredibly important to me so I’m repeating myself – disabled people need opportunities at ALL levels. Defaulting us to only the lowest pay grade is downright offensive.
Anyway, that wrapped up my Monday.
On Tuesday I worked on my 2023 book on job hunting – the first time I had to job hunt as an openly disabled person. I did a final self edit on the book and it felt done! Then I sent it off to a kind author friend of mine who is taking a look over it for me. I’ll let you know when I release it – it will be this month, disability pride month. I hope next week, but there are some prepublication tasks for me to get through first and I still have to maintain applying for jobs.
On Wednesday it was time for coaching! This was provided to me free as part of the outplacement services by my former employer.
Unfortunately it was largely a waste of time. My barriers to work are systemic, and coaches want you to change things about yourself. I can’t change being disabled. The session was par for the course in talking about a disability issue with a non-disabled person, they just don’t believe you that the situation is what it is.
Some bullet points from the session:
- They asked if I was trying to change my thoughts or if I was trying to change employers (my answer is employers, and I strongly disliked the implication my thoughts need changing).
- They suggested I apply for jobs at companies who are remote first. I’m unsure why they thought I hadn’t already been doing that.
- They told me companies have entered into real estate leases and want people in the office to justify the leases. I said I was well aware that can be a reason but the poor quality decision making of a business is not my responsibility.
- I was told the only thing we can really change is ourselves. I can’t change that I’m housebound.
- They were completely convinced that there MUST be services available for people like me. They would not listen to my knowledge of the disability community and services available.
- Funding was suggested – funding to pay for workplace adjustments. Only, I’m free to accommodate. You just give me a company laptop and I work from my desk not their desk.
- Then they decided a prominent advocacy body could help me. I’m well aware of their work and they do not help people with job hunting.
- In case you haven’t been susfpicious so far, based on their really obvious suggestions, they had opened chat gpt to get these ideas, despite me telling them I do not use AI for ethical reasons. It’s not only dismissive to use AI when I’ve said it’s unethical, it’s also downright offensive to imply that AI knows more about disability than I do.
- They decided my need to work from home is something that is ten years away, and therefore I suppose I am at fault for being … in the future? I don’t even know how to summarise that part. It felt like bootlicking for useless prospective employers. If my needs are only going to be met 10 years in the future, then who is paying for me to live for the next 10 years? Will all the employers who won’t hire me put some money into a discrimination pot and pay me to be unemployed?
- At the end they said I needed to make working from home more of a negotiation to make it easier for the employers. I said it’s not a negotiation and that this is an area where employers need to grow, they don’t need me to be kinder. I’ve been meek and quiet about this stuff in the past and it leads to a worse outcome for me, so now I am very clear and upfront.
- They still then wanted me to soften how I approach sharing my needs so that the other party doesn’t feel threatened. I said it’s a fact that people are threatened by disability.
Side note, if you’re an expert, which I assume you are if you’re in a position of power as a coach, why are you using the shitty word calculator, hallucinating AI tools to do your job for you? If I didn’t find them unethical, I could use chat gpt on my own and ask the same questions. Good thing the money for this session didn’t come out of my pocket.
Anyway, those bullet points I shared were a SMALL part of the hour long session. Overall, it felt very regressive. Be meek. Don’t speak up for yourself. Squash yourself into a box and suffocate, you know, the usual stuff non-disabled people expect us to do. It was exactly as helpful as I thought it was going to be. I’m not surprised but I am disappointed. For once, it would be nice if a resource available to me was worth something. I wanted the coaching to be something good.
The only thing they identified that I could do, which I am not currently doing, was more networking and things like coffee chats online. I lied and told them I would do some. I am absolutely not going to though, I am not neurotypical enough for networking.
On a personal note, with the exception of lying about valuing networking activities, I was very unmasked in the session, which I was very proud of myself about.
Thursday and Friday were a bit calmer. I felt like I didn’t get much time to apply for jobs most of the week, so I focused on clearing out my saved jobs and open tabs. I had been feeling a bit behind on my mental goals of how much I apply for each week, so it was nice to have completed more applications. I had a freelance inquiry, I wrote out my tasks for book publication, cleared out some inboxes, did a little bit of writing, thought about some fiction author stuff, and generally just ended the week feeling caught up for once.
Onto this weeks mutual aid corner, because I forgot last week. This week I’d like to highlight River Wintergreen, who is an artist seeking support while they wait to be granted NDIS funding. If you have the ability to share or done, all actions are appreciated to ensure this member of the disability community has their support needs met. Full details can be found in their Go Fund Me.
Links referenced in the episode:
- River’s Go Fund Me
- WWDA Report
- My freelance editing business
- The three types of apologies and what you’re really saying
- The entry level job
- Kangaroos
Recorded and edited by myself, Vanessa Smith.
Intro and outro music by Ben Dawson.
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